tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post4936764998712652000..comments2023-09-04T08:27:08.162-06:00Comments on Not-So-Random Musings: A Different Take on the Gay Scout Denied Eagle Issue, from this Eagle ScoutChristopher Stogdillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07831712020518883173noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-90020780121781269162013-02-22T09:32:19.356-07:002013-02-22T09:32:19.356-07:00It doesn't change at all.....did you read the ...It doesn't change at all.....did you <i>read</i> the post, or just skim it?Christopher Stogdillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831712020518883173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-83965802729125094462013-02-22T05:55:24.873-07:002013-02-22T05:55:24.873-07:00How does your answer change if Ryan happened to be...How does your answer change if Ryan happened to be a member of a faith community (like Quakers) who welcome same-sex loving people? According to many religious communities, being welcoming is part of being Reverent and Morally Straight!LiamGBMurphynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-47949258922820513652013-01-10T16:59:03.048-07:002013-01-10T16:59:03.048-07:00Being an atheist is a choice, just like believing ...Being an atheist is a choice, just like believing in God is a choice... so I don't quite see what you're saying there. To me, given my belief that sexuality is something you cannot choose or change, it would be more accurate to remove every mention of sexuality from all the press and replace it with "Left-Handed" or "Black" or "Short" or any other aspect of a persons inherent being that cannot be changed. And, yes, in those cases I think Ellen would be just as likely to act from her conscience.<br /><br />Odd your choice of words when it comes to dismissing my interpretation of the tenant "physically strong" as "off-base." You are taking something literally worded and reinterpreting it to mean something prettier and less severe so as to accommodate somebody who has physical limitations. I assume other Scouting proponents would do the same. This is rightfully not considered "diminishing the Scouting organization," but instead being tolerant and inclusive. Sad that boys with BSA-regarded "sexual limitations" aren't looked at in the same light. Guess it's easier to just wave a Bible while kicking those disgusting, godless faggots out on their asses.<br /><br />Sorry, but I think that this kind of repugnant attitude is severely in need of legislation in order to fundamentally change <b><i>American society</i></b> for the better.Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-4205571478830583222013-01-10T16:33:34.776-07:002013-01-10T16:33:34.776-07:00I think that eventually the Boy Scouts of America ...I think that eventually the Boy Scouts of America will embrace gay Scouts and Scoutmasters, but the BSA is NOT a liberal organization and probably will never be. It is a very conservative organization with a very specific history in this country.<br /><br />Trying to manipulate the population and enforce change through legislation will fundamentally change the Boy Scout of America for the worse.<br /><br />When this issue is no longer a "liberal" issue, when we don't care so much about sexual orientation, <i>then</i> the BSA can remain the type of organization it is and still have openly gay Scouters (adults). <br /><br />I personally don't care that the Scout was gay....I spent so much time on that issue because for one that is the major issue being brought up. If you removed every mention of sexuality from all the press and replaced it with "Atheist", would there be so much sympathy and a call to arms? Would he be getting a big-assed check from Ellen?<br /><br />I don't think so.<br /><br />Now as far as your "physically strong" comment....totally off-base. "Physically Strong" is about realizing potential, not adherence to some specific ideal. Allowances....reasonable accommodations, are made to those with physical and mental barriers (as they pertain to Scouting). I've helped handicapped Scouts earn merit badges as a counselor. With Archery, for example, if their physical limitations kept them from achieving the required score, that wasn't held against them. Everything else that they could achieve was. <br /><br />Christopher Stogdillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831712020518883173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-4772167320492110512013-01-10T15:39:43.019-07:002013-01-10T15:39:43.019-07:00Stupid 4096 character limit! Cont...
That's m...Stupid 4096 character limit! Cont...<br /><br />That's me "reading between the lines" of the BSA'a treatment of their gay scouts, and no amount of additional reading is going to change my mind.<br /><br />And because you claim to believe also that sexuality is not a choice, I am, however, hopeful that eventually you'll change your mind, which will be a step towards them changing theirs. It's the very least that an organization claiming moral superiority can do.<br /><br />I'd get into the whole "physically strong" imperative being discriminatory towards the handicapped, but I think I've said enough for today. :-)Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-15737568943495080672013-01-10T15:39:08.063-07:002013-01-10T15:39:08.063-07:00To me, issues like this always seem to boil down t...To me, issues like this always seem to boil down to whether or not somebody "chooses to be gay." If it is indeed a choice, then I would pretty much have to accept everything you've said. I mean, I don't agree with it, but I'd accept your viewpoint. Never mind that the ultimate goal of most any Scout when joining up is to achieve Eagle, and it's pretty crappy that somebody gets that in their head and dreams of the day it comes true... only to get it jerked away because they realize they're gay half-way down the road... that's just mean. But oh well. We don't always get what we want. Life isn't always fair and all that.<br /><br />EXCEPT... No gay person I have ever known has ever said that their sexuality was a choice. On the contrary, any time this has come up in conversation, they are quite clear that it was not a choice, just an aspect of who they are that they discovered along the way. I choose to believe this, because it's crazy to assume that 99.9% of the gay population is lying about it... especially my gay friends, whom have no reason to deceive me. So, in my mind, people don't choose to be gay at all... that's just the way God made them. Maybe it's His way of controlling population growth or something, I don't really know, but overwhelming evidence commands me to accept it. And that's where your argument falls apart for me. ESPECIALLY if you also believe that sexuality is not a choice, and inexplicably feel that this fact isn't important or relevant to the discussion. Because, from my perspective, it's the single most important and relevant point you've made.<br /><br />Doing your duty to God and country means that you are true to who you are and honest in dealing with God and your fellow humans. The Bible is replete with admonishment for lying and bearing false witness. There's even a Commandment condemning the practice. Given this, I'd argue that choosing to lie about who you are in order to get your Eagle badge is the ultimate deal-breaker when it comes to flying morally straight. So, according to the actual code that an Eagle Scout is driven to obey under fear of expulsion, what's a Scout to do when he realizes that he's gay? Change something he cannot change? Or just lie about it so he can reach his Scouting goals? Well, according to you... no. This is impossible and in direct opposition to what Scouting is all about. So instead, he's expected to quit over something he has no control over, even though he's doing nothing more than adhering to the letter of the Scouting law he's chosen to adopt by being honest. That's some pretty lame bullshit right there.<br /><br />Laws grow and change as society grows and changes. It's because of this that Americans don't own slaves and I can marry a woman that's a different race than I am. Scouting needs to grow up and accept that some if its thinking is outdated and need to be changed to accommodate modern advancements in tolerance and inclusiveness. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of "diminishing the Scouting organization as a whole"... it's actually living up to the very ideals that define the Scouting organization. Otherwise, all these kids getting killed or killing themselves because society won't accept who they are? Well, that gets to sit squarely on the Boy Scouts of America's doorstep. Because if you work hard enough, dedicate yourself thoroughly enough, and believe in the principles taught to you... anybody SHOULD be able to do it, regardless of how God made them. Anything less is just bigotry from an era best left behind.Dave2https://www.blogger.com/profile/15376066552003396828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-12067708661048575052013-01-10T08:50:25.465-07:002013-01-10T08:50:25.465-07:00I see that...
[...because he "proactively sta...I see that...<br />[...because he "proactively stated that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God' and does not meet Scouting's membership requirements".]<br />...is the tipping point in the argument. <br /><br />Tactful commentary on a controversial topic.<br /><br />kudos <br /><br />masodohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02132234899113156952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-88588962729299095802013-01-10T04:34:32.939-07:002013-01-10T04:34:32.939-07:00This...very *this.* Married to an Eagle who is now...This...very *this.* Married to an Eagle who is now an adult leader and the sister to an Eagle, I've been reading the news with a strong sense of frustration. The two things that immediately leapt out at me were his age, and his admitted inability to honor the Scout Oath. If he was involved in Scouting since Tiger Cubs, having been a Star and a Life Scout, he knew the difference and *should* have known he could not make Eagle. His orientation is only related to this issue as an influence on his inability to live by the Oath. On that, BSA has been as open as he is on the matter, and the policy has not changed. He had a choice to make -- Eagle or his self-identification -- and he made it. And now, based on that, he (and his mother) have to live with the consequences of his choice. I'm certain he's disappointed, but, as you say, if he had the maturity to recognize his orientation at 16, he should have the maturity to recognize this as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-54365490093319749692013-01-10T04:25:01.062-07:002013-01-10T04:25:01.062-07:00Of course I read what you wrote and as Todd mentio...Of course I read what you wrote and as Todd mentions, you never really spell out what violation of the Oath it is that you feel was committed. The only specific area that you mention that I noticed is reference you make is to being morally straight. I wasn't trying to be critical of you. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Thanks! Mojoskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04592373725241861672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-61134236044319423032013-01-09T23:15:57.804-07:002013-01-09T23:15:57.804-07:00I believe that although the majority of Americans ...I believe that although the majority of Americans "tolerate" gays they by no means believe that homosexuals are morally straight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-82574029987303291312013-01-09T21:06:46.755-07:002013-01-09T21:06:46.755-07:00I have read your article twice. You do not point o...I have read your article twice. You do not point out where the person in question deviated from scout law or oath. <br /><br />Instead of leaving us to assume that this is a dereliction of "duty to god" maybe you ought to be forthright and just say it. Of course, that dereliction of duty leaves wide interpretation. XRhinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01900727032392676569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-78320321579749871272013-01-09T20:45:10.992-07:002013-01-09T20:45:10.992-07:00That isn't my position at all...did you actual...That isn't my position at all...did you actually <i>read</i> what I wrote?Christopher Stogdillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07831712020518883173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9709045.post-27118947058159809802013-01-09T20:36:28.081-07:002013-01-09T20:36:28.081-07:00So your position basically boils down to the idea ...So your position basically boils down to the idea that a gay person can't be "morally straight"? Is that realky what you think the term "morally straight" means?Mojoskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04592373725241861672noreply@blogger.com